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Ann Maree Goudzwaard and Julia Fillnow host expert contributor Chuck DeGroat today on the Safe to Hope podcast. Dr. DeGroat is a counseling and Christian spirituality professor, licensed therapist, and author of his most recent works, “When Narcissism Comes to Church,” and “Healing What’s Within.”

DeGroat begins by sharing his journey from arrogant seminary student to having to face his own personal work, recognizing abusive dynamics in a misogynistic church context, being fired, and then later confronting trauma and secondary trauma.

Dr. DeGroat enhances our HH library of definitions for spiritual abuse by defining it as the misuse of pastoral authority, Scripture, and spiritual practices to control, coerce, and exploit image bearers, targeting worth, belonging, and purpose.

The conversation explores narcissism (grandiose and covert), its trauma roots, how churches reward it, and identifying red flags. Together the hosts and Dr. DeGroat emphasize systemic complicity, the need for truth-telling, accountability, and deep repentance and repair, alongside healing trauma’s bodily effects and how that healing requires safety, naming patterns, and connection. Listen now on your favorite podcast platform!

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Join us in thanking Help[H]er for serving as our Activities Sponsor for the 2026 Women’s Retreat. 💛

Their support helps create meaningful moments throughout the weekend, spaces where women can rest, connect, and experience healing in tangible ways.

Please join us in expressing our appreciation for them in the comments.

“Called to Peace holds a deeply meaningful place in our hearts, both personally and as an organization. On a personal level, every member of our staff and board has been shaped by CTPM’s training, resources, advocacy, and relationships. We are better caregivers because we ourselves were first cared for.

On an organizational level, Help[H]er would not exist without Called to Peace Ministries. The advocacy training we received through CTPM not only equipped us, but also stirred a vision to carry forward what they so faithfully model: thoughtful, courageous care for those impacted by all forms of abuse.”
— Dr. Ann Maree Goudzwaard

You can learn more about Help[H]er at helpher.help.

Listen Now! In this episode Ann Maree introduces “Michelle,” a wife, mother, and grandmother raised in a culturally Jewish home. During the Jesus movement Michelle, a troubled teen who had been spiritually restless, became a Christian. Despite finding a newfound faith she was barred by her parents from attending church. Michelle relied on parachurch supports like Christian radio and bookstores, absorbing both evangelical “written” discipleship practices and “unwritten” lifestyle rules shaped by her new peers. Over decades and across many denominations, she describes repeated encounters with high-control church systems and spiritual abuse. The conversation addresses trauma, grief, justice, forgiveness as an ongoing process, counseling, and hope for future reform as unhealthy institutions are “pruned.”

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FaithAndTrauma AbuseOfPower

In this episode on Safe to Hope Season 7, Helen shares her personal journey from complementarianism to egalitarianism, shaped not by theory alone but by years of painful church experiences. Through her stories of dismissal, mishandled abuse, and the repeated sidelining of women’s voices, she reflects on how male-centered church systems can wound rather than protect. At the heart of the conversation is a clear plea:

Women want to matter, and churches must learn to listen, respect, and care for them well.

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